NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/lang/c++-part1/1601

Text File | 1996-08-06 | 10.9 KB | 211 lines

Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++
Path: netcom.com!gmandel
From: [e-mail] (Glenn Mandelkern)
Subject: Re: Difficulty hiring people with C++ experience.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <4bto2d$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <4clu0d$[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:42:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]

In article <4clu0d$[e-mail]>,
Tom Donaldson <[e-mail]> wrote:
>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Glenn Mandelkern) writes:
>
>> Many great programmers have a large stock of reference books and FAQ's,
>> can you bring those to an interview?
>
>Bring them all in yer head.

I seriously hope you are not suggesting that I memorize all my Graphics Gems
volumes, all of Stroustrup's books, the O'Reilly X series, my numerous
magazine subscriptions, etc.  with the hopes of proving to someone that
I know a subject.  A big fallacy in the American education system is the
rewarding of grades if you can parrot back information.  Unfortunately,
many employers adopt a similar system.  The way that information keeps
growing, time would not allow one person to memorize it all.

Possibly the biggest lesson I have learned in C and C++ is the speed and
power you can obtain from passing pointers and references around.  You need
not carry the heavy objects, making copies everywhere you go--that takes a
lot of overhead.  I've been able to apply this concept in real life as well.
It has helped me to overcome my previous pack-rat mentality.

Personally, I do not view it as a cop-out to come across a question at an
interview and say, "That's very similar to the Volume 6A approach of widget
creation."  When it comes to an interview, a compressed time period where
you are selling and marketing yourself to the needs of an employer, I am
always hoping the employer will likewise be knowledgeable about these subjects
and demonstrate his willingness to work as well.  Realizing the employer will
not see things as clearly as I do in respect to my background, it is my
obligation to spell out these things, especially in terms of his problems,
issues and competitive market.  You do want to expand your answers, yet at
the same time respect the employer by not spoonfeeding him.

But if the employer thinks I should have all this material memorized because
he fears that the propagation delay in looking it up in a book, FAQ, or URL,
(usually 15 to 30 sec) is way too costly, then that raises many concerns on
my behalf.  The employer may be indirectly saying that the best applicant
knows all the stuff already and will never have to learn anything else.
Worse, that employer may turn out to be a source of stress and eventual
burnout, something that is in fact hurting many programmers today.

Besides, delivery of the complete set of knowledge in something could take
up a lot of valuable interview time as well.  Then neither of us has time
to explore each other, determining assets and liabilities of each side.
Just how much can you derive from answering one technical question?


>In fact, ask the interviewers if
>they have heard of some of the cooler concepts, technologies,
>books, authors, etc.  I personally am looking for folks that
>know things that I DO NOT.  People from whom I can learn.  There
>is one of me already ... I don't need any clones of myself or of
>the other folks already on the team.  What I need is people that
>will help the team stay abreast of the industry; people who
>bring more than just 9-5 grunt labor to the table.
>

I like this approach very much.  You view other people as sources
that add to your skill set.  However, this admirable confident attitude
can also be viewed by others as a threat, be it by management or other
persons in the organizational hierarchy.


>
>It reminds me of talking to a consultant at a previous job whose
>contract was not being renewed.  She was upset that "you folks
>straight out of school have all the advantages ... you are up to
>date on all the new stuff."  I nearly laughed ... I pointed out
>to her that I was fast approaching middle age, and had NOT just
>gotten out of school.  She looked surprised and asked how I
>managed to keep up to date with new technologies in computing.
>My answer: "I read books."
>
>She claimed that she did not have time to read.  Which
>eventually resulted in her having LOTS of time to read.  Funny
>thing is, she was not working any longer hours than I was, and
>SHE was not a single parent; it is not a matter of time as much
>as of interest.  Last I heard, she had switched from computing
>to real estate.
>

Career changing is something that is getting more and more prevalent
in the 1990's and beyond.  There is no reason that one should have to
select a career at age 20 and be branded for life with that profession.
With the prevalence of 40,000 layoffs galore, why not have your options open?
People change, feelings change--programmers go from BASIC to C++.

Perhaps this older lady discovered that programming was just not for her.
Some people learn great by reading books, others prefer classes and seminars.
Maybe she saw that many programmers tend to be introverted but she
likes to be out with people in an extroverted environment where she
can show a house to a couple.  Maybe she could not demonstrate software
to people who got as excited as she did and that frustrated her over time.
In an effort to not hurt your feelings, she may have discounted these
realizations by passing it of as a minor fault in herself of not having
time to read.  But just like you and I dedicate time in our lives to read,
she has her choice to do with her daily 24 hours as she pleases.

Let me play devil's advocate:
      Knowing this lady's deficiencies, what processes did you use
      to try to encourage her to become a better programmer?
      Was your answer of "I read books" delivered judgmentally
      or as a means of encouragement?

I'm bringing this up because I have seen this before in other scenarios,
some constructive and some destructive.  My last comment was not intended
as a flame--I have made it before in other places and some have thanked
me for making them aware; others have told me to shut up.


[
As an aside, I HATE when I hear parents and adults go on and on
as to how their kids know so much more about computers and will teach them.
Don't these adults realize what a detrimental message they are sending?
They're saying, "Now that you are young, you are smart and agile, but when
you get to be my age, you will become slow and dumb like me."  Maybe this
lady succumbed to this thinking, believing that only young people can pick
up so-called complicated computers.
]


We usually hear about the child who became a doctor to please his parents,
yet discovered a brand new world in doing social work.  Since I do not know
this lady, I cannot decide just on this information if she made this change
after sound thinking, or if real estate was the most readily available form
of escape.  Regardless, career changing takes risk--she has basically
had to discard her programming knowledge and history for another field.
Again, I am not one to judge; may she end up getting a big commission.


>I think something has changed over the past 5-10 years in
>computing.  It used to be that folks who went into programming
>did so because of a passion for computing, and were considered
>socially unacceptable geeks, nerds.  Somewhere along the line,
>the run of the mill student noticed that there were good paying
>jobs in computing, and that demand was growing.  Now we are
>getting those folks: they are not really interested in the
>computing industry, only in getting a job, getting a pay check.
>They are 9-5'ers who seem shocked that anyone would even think
>of reading something that might look like a text book unless
>required to do so.  "Hey dude, I already graduated ... which way
>is the beach?"
>

This is common in any industry.  There are always those who get into
something for the money, others who get into it for the love of the
profession.  Some people subscribe to Marsha Sinetar's "Do What You
Love, the Money will Follow".  I like this concept a lot myself,
but like a new shirt that I wear, eventually I may go out and
buy another one.

However, I would caution you and any reader who thinks that just because
one reads every single tome on computing that there will be someone out
there who will reward you.  That concept was great in school.  Product
development does not issue such trophies.  Possibly the one industry
that has taught me this the most is the video games industry--there are
many great programmers there, but the consumer is the ultimate decision
maker.  All the C++ templates, exception handling and texture mapping in
the world do not mean a damn to that consumer who is basically wanting
the most basic human need--to experience enjoyment and have fun,
or in the corporate world, to get his job done.  When one cool game comes
out, everyone wants that one game; being second best does not count.

As far as the beach is concerned, sometimes you may find me there
with a new C++ book.  Then again, I many times value a complete
removal from the subject at hand.  Some of us programmers also derive
a great source of strength from other activities and highly value a
break.  Ironically, I once had an idea for resolving a bug when I hiked
along a river and understood iostreams a little better as a result.


>Oops!  Did not mean to get so carried away.  I am becoming very
>concerned about the difficulty in finding PROFESSIONAL
>programmers, however.  It really does seem to be THE limiting
>factor in producing high quality, industrial strength, software.
>

I value the desire for high quality.  Yet I have experienced times
when quality is another substitute for a deadly word, perfectionism.
If perfectionism is not guarded, it leads to procrastination.  Please under-
stand I am not saying that mediocre software should be released.  At the
same time, realize that by delaying in being too perfect, a competitor can use
that to his advantage, and release a slick product before you.  Then you
have the added burden of showing why your product is superior.  Meanwhile,
no one will be on the sidelines to award you extra credit points for quality.
In an ideal world, professionalism would guarantee profits.  But in the real
world, there are plenty of ways to make products besides being book smart.

So when it comes to hiring C++ programmers, I would hope they would be
market savvy as well.

--
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Mandelkern                     "Hee, hee, hee, hee!" -- Questor the Elf
[e-mail]                   "When passion runs deep,
San Jose, CA                         you're playing for keeps" -- Keith Emerson
Games, GUI's and Entertainment    What does Motif sound like in the key of C++?